Do I have a chance in the game industry?

    This site uses cookies. By continuing to browse this site, you are agreeing to our Cookie Policy.

    • Do I have a chance in the game industry?

      Dear all,

      I have a simple question, that's stated in the subject of this post: Do I have a chance in the game industry?

      Before you can answer, let me tell you a little bit about myself and what I want to do. I have a french engineering master's degree in Signal Processing for digital communication, which I obtained in 2010. After my master's degree I had a PhD contract with Technicolor in France. The subject of the PhD was the multimodal analysis of video content, and I especially worked on events recognition in movies audio streams, such as the detection of gunshots, or screams. The methods heavily relied on machine learning, and I like to think I acquired a fair expertise in the subject. I worked particularly with support vector machines (SVM), Bayesian Networks (which I know the best, strucutre learning, parameter learning, inference, you name it), Gaussian Mixture Models, Kmeans, K-Nearest Neighbours (who doesn't know about this one? :-)), Hidden Markov Models (HMM) and I have knowledge about a few others, such as the well know Neural Networks. In the end, I worked on how to stabilise the representation of the data that we input the classifier algorithm. I defended my PhD in October last year, 2013.

      After working for Technicolor, I was fed up the multimedia industry, especially the fact that we are researching new ways to sell people advertisement, or new ways to have the user NOT think. So I decided to try my luck in another field. I also wanted to try the public lab environment. So I am now a Post-doc in a lab that works on surgical process modelling, and information processing in the OR, in collaboration with the University Hospital of Rennes in France. I myself work on process synthesis, using Petri Nets and their derivatives (another technique to add to my machine learning knowledge :-)). However I found that public system, and the fact that I actually work alone once again, is not something for me. I have no stress, no sense of urgency, and a good part of my work is about making stuff that I don't like, in a field that I don't believe. Let met elaborate on the latter for a bit. I am working on surgical process modelling, so I have to work with surgeons on how to represent the surgical processes. The idea is to have examples of surgical processes for one type surgery, and try to derive a general process model from them. This part is actually quite interesting, if you don"t consider the fact that you have to recolt the data, validate them, filter them before you can use them, which means about 3-4 days of work for one example (We need lots to have meaningfull results, that's just for one surgery type. Change the surgery type and start over...). I was asked to try to use ontologies (which I know very little about) in the process learning approach, but from what I gathered about ontologies, they are less than usefull for what we need... In other words, I don't believe in those, at least in what we want to do with it. In french, I use a term that literally translates as "Intellectual Wanking" (Pardon my french). And don't get me started on the validation process. I also don't believe that what we do in research will work before the next 20 years, or at least with a robustness and generalisation properties that would be enough for me to actually consider selling them.

      I am not saying this last job taught me nothing, on the contrary. I now know about process mining, and I have increased my skills in programming and program optimisation. But I want to try to apply my knowledge of machine learning, especially the way they are used, and my knowledge of programming to stuff that will come out in the next future (2-3 years max), and that I would actually be proud of. I also want to work in a team of more than two people, where one of them isn't only telling the other what to do.

      On the other hand, I always felt that what my knowledge of learning algorithms could be applied to video games, but I knew getting in the industry was hard, so I did not even considered applying. As the year passed, I wander around on the internet, on pages about how to make video games, etc... And one day I jumped and bought GCC4 along with "Artificial Intelligence for Games" from Ian Millington et. al. I went through the first one which convinced me that I want to do this, and I am reading the second one, which definitely confirmed my conviction. I want to be a programmer, if possible in the video games industry, and cherry on the cake, an AI programmer. I am currently learning about design patterns using my wife's course material (she is a computer science engineer), and I made my first Tetris (which I had a lot of fun making :-)). I am currently developing a space shooter, a danmaku to be specific, with a friend who actually plays a lot of them, but doesn't know how to program, so that's quite interesting. We are using Unity, and when it is ready, I'll put it on the web for you to try. Then I plan of building a small rugby IA to apply my IA4G knowledge.

      I hope I haven't bored you to death with this long post. If had the courage to reach the end, I would appreciate if you could give me a piece of mind on how relevant my CV would be for the game industry. I know I have to finish at the very least one or two games before, but I feel like I can sell my PhD as experience.

      Thank you very much for reading me,

      --DerickTP

      PS: don't hesitate to kill every hope I have. Better to tell a harsh truth than leave someone expecting.

      The post was edited 2 times, last by DerickThePoney ().

    • Hey Derick,

      I think your technical training will definitely come in handy, I'm not entirely sure how much of it will specifically transfer to games but it is useful none the less. I've been in the game industry for roughly 9 months now and I can tell you I am definitely less 'qualified' that you are, I have a grade 10 education with a grade 12 'equivalent' test, and a year and a half accelerated course in game design & development. The reason I got the job I have now is probably because I wanted it so bad that I worked extremely hard to prove myself. This involved reading tons of books, programming since the beginning of high school, getting up early and going to bed late, spending every waking moment programming, and most importantly, creating several small games that displayed my ability, and I think that is what will decide whether you'll make it or not, I have seen a dozen other applicants come in for interviews, and the answer to why we didn't give them the job has almost every time been that they either have anything to show. Work hard and make several finished games (pong, tetris, missile command), and you will have something that a ton of hopefuls don't have.
      PC - Custom Built
      CPU: 3rd Gen. Intel i7 3770 3.4Ghz
      GPU: ATI Radeon HD 7959 3GB
      RAM: 16GB

      Laptop - Alienware M17x
      CPU: 3rd Gen. Intel i7 - Ivy Bridge
      GPU: NVIDIA GeForce GTX 660M - 2GB GDDR5
      RAM: 8GB Dual Channel DDR3 @ 1600mhz
    • Dear mholley,

      Thanks so much for reading through my prose. You more or less confirm what I thought. My plan is to start applying for game industry jobs real soon, and see what happens, while working on my own game projects. I actually found an offer that I could apply to, as they require no particular experience, and I have expertise in fields that they are looking for. Moreover, they say they send you coding test to do, so it would be a good way for me to know what kind of test they ask for.

      Thanks again,

      --DerickTP
    • All I can add is that my interaction with software development recruiters (not necessary gaming) regarding the mechanical engineering PhD has been negative. One asked why I don't just become a professor, and another told me to send him a new resume without the PhD (which I refused to do out of some odd sense of pride).

      I have not heard directly from any game studios so I'm not sure if they care either way. It's very competitive so don't get disappointed if the first don't work out. I'm basically 3/3 on national Lab applications, but 0/25 or 0/35 on gaming jobs. So, it seems tough to me. I may be doing something wrong, it may be the job market in southern California, or it could just be the life of an entry level game developer! Good luck!
    • Hey Derick,

      Two things:
      1) I am the lead AI programmer on The Sims 4.
      2) I don't have a computer science degree.

      This more than anything should prove to you that you are not doomed.

      The games industry is really about what you know and what you can do. Your degree makes little or no difference. Think of a degree as being the end movie of a video game. You don't play the game to watch the movie; you could just youtube it. You play the game for the experience. The same is true for school and for life.

      That having been said, someone without a relevant degree needs to work harder to prove that know what they're doing. That means making games in your spare time, which it sounds like you're already doing. I don't think your education and experience is useless; it will all help serve you, but I'm guessing that you have a long road ahead of you to get to where you want to be.

      When I look at perspective resumes / CV's, one thing I look for are projects that the candidate has done. I download any games they made and play them. Your goal is to spark an interest and make someone want to have a conversation with you. In the end, you need someone to like you enough to take a chance on you.

      Also, you probably won't be an AI programmer right away. There are very few junior AI programmers in the industry. Most junior engineers work on simpler systems until they gain enough experience to start specializing.

      That's the good news. Now for the bad news.

      Breaking into the games industry is really, really hard. If we posted a position for an entry level programmer, how many resumes do you think we'd get? Hundreds. HR goes through many of them, we go through the rest. The last time we opened up a few positions, we got nearly 1000 resumes. In the end, we hired three people. That's about a 0.3% success rate.

      I also believe your location will serve as a slight hindrance. There is more game dev here in the US that out in the UK. You guys do have several studios out there, but it was a but limited last time I checked. That'll make things harder.

      So now what?

      Here's what you should do:

      1) Make and FINISH games. Starting games doesn't do anything, you need to actually finish games. I want to see a HUD, menus, options, levels, and an end-game.

      2) Get feedback from people who are in the position that you want to be in. That means industry professionals (like me). Getting feedback from your friends is okay, but you need to find someone who will tear your work apart and tell you how to make it better. You're welcome to post stuff here and I will look at it. Be warned, I am VERY direct with my feedback.

      3) Network! That includes talking to people on sites like this and meeting people who work in the industry. It also means going to industry conferences. Plan to go to GDC 2015 and meet people. I'll be there and I can introduce you to the best AI programmers in the business.

      And most of all, don't give up! It's really freakin' hard to break in but you CAN do it.

      -Rez
    • @mholley - I'm always curious what people consider staying up late and getting up early. I usually head to bed around 10 and get up around 5. I find that I can only maintain less sleep than this for a short time. How about yourself?

      @derick - back on topic. I'm still trying to get in the game industry myself due to a few detours, but I can mention another game AI book I'm enjoying so far: Game AI Pro. It has a collection of articles from industry pros (including Rez) on a variety of topics.
    • During school it was pretty harsh, some nights going to bed 2-3AM and getting up for class at 6-7AM, eventually everyone has to sleep, but those extra hours were spent when I was really on the verge of 'getting it' in so many different parts of game development.

      I'm not saying everyone should only sleep 5 hours, and certainly not indefinitely, but in my case I had a choice of coming out of school ready to join the industry, or, take an un-related job and practice game development in my spare time, if I didn't get into the industry right away I may have simply fizzled out or taken years to get in.

      My current days are actually pretty decent, the hours are flexible, usually I head to bed between 12-1AM, and I arrive at work between 9-10AM, so I think I am regaining my long lost sleep :D.
      PC - Custom Built
      CPU: 3rd Gen. Intel i7 3770 3.4Ghz
      GPU: ATI Radeon HD 7959 3GB
      RAM: 16GB

      Laptop - Alienware M17x
      CPU: 3rd Gen. Intel i7 - Ivy Bridge
      GPU: NVIDIA GeForce GTX 660M - 2GB GDDR5
      RAM: 8GB Dual Channel DDR3 @ 1600mhz
    • Makes sense. Guess I'm taking the "years to get in" route. I didn't really decide to go into game programming till a month or so till I graduated with a second bachelors (a story by itself). After I graduated I studied random things related to game programming, instead of just making my own game. Then I had a son, had to get a job (things get expensive with kids), and only part finished games. It's been good, but I've had to refocus myself recently and work on one thing at a time instead of jumping around. I certainly recommend this latter approach (finishing games) instead of my jumping around earlier.
    • Hey all,

      Thanks to you for your participation to my thread. It's been very interesting to read you all. What I'll do is send resume's for job in the game industry that my profile might fit, while looking for software engineers jobs in case I don't (as I most likely won't) find one in time. I have more than a few software engineers friends, not counting my wife, so I got that going for me :) . I have already sent one that requires machine learning and signal processing skills (amongst others...) and no previous experience whatsoever. The position is at Nintendo, in Paris, it's a bit old, but summer in France is usually a slow period for jobs searching. As they are obviously looking for various (and most likely numerous) profiles, here is the offer:
      emploi.afjv.com/emploi_jeux_video.php?r=EDEV352-7290

      I think my profiles fits allright, in two or three of these field, and I have consequent knowledge in some others, if not expertise.

      Also, for those interested, I've put my Tetris online on my web page for the occasion:
      sites.google.com/site/penetcedric/games

      Thanks again,
      Best regards,

      -- DerickTP